I need to get this part out first because it has to deal with the main part of the story. I don't know how else to say this, so I will just get on with it.
This has been eating at me since we went to Chicago in November. Jonathan and I went to dinner with his brother and wife, so my brother-in-law and sister-and-law. Like always the conversation started about god and religion. Jonathan and I are both Agnostic, we are unsure that there is a god or an intelligent creator. We are just a couple of people who accept everyone for who they are and expect the same. Well, not with them. My brother-in-law especially. He finds every exuse to argue the subjet. In this case he went to far or he put his foot and his mouth and their is absolutely no way I could ever forgive him for this. The discussion came up about loosing a child and my brother-in-law said pretty much that we lost Jasper because we are godless and evil. I was dumb founded and pissed to say the least. He soon after tried to take this statement back and say something different, but the damage is done with me. I know on some level he meant it when he said it, even if he doesn't know. The people in my life know I'm not an evil person. I am a person who will bend over backwards to help them. I treat EVERYONE with respect and dignity as I expect to be treated and this is what I get and from my own family.
I'm usually a very forgiving person, but I don't know how I can forgive my Brother-in-law for saying what he said.
The way I think of things is that if there is a god. I would hope that he would understand why I didn't believe he exsisted. If a god exsists and he is just like he is in the bible, all mean and unforgiving of people like me who are unsure then so be it. Then it is for me to live with. I don't understand why people get so offended by me being agnostic, it's not like I want to change anyone.
I am so sorry your brother-in-law made that awful comment. I can only imagine how much it must have hurt. I don't understand either why anyone would be so offended by you being agnostic. ((HUGS))
ReplyDeleteEveryone has their own way of looking at things and it would never make you right or wrong for being agnostic! Your brother in law seems a little closed minded. Im sorry that had to be said to you :(
ReplyDeleteI have to say I am a believer but it is your right to make your own decisions about faith. I am amazed by people so pompous and say things so heartless. Tragedy happens to beleivers and non believers every day. It is also not for us to judge anyone. How the hell can anyone say something like that. If you are a believer then you should with hold judgement as that is Gods job not ours as mere mortals on ths planet. Your babies are precious all of them and I would have to say the man doesn't know much about faith if these are his close minded thoughts and you have a right to be hurt and angry.
ReplyDeleteThat is so horrible and hurtful. I'm so sorry. Did you tell him about all the Godly people you've met through your blog that have also lost babies? I believe there is no reasons (other than medical) why our babies were taken from us. I'd be so angry, too. Hang in there!
ReplyDeleteOh my I can't believe he would say something like to you! I don't blame you for being angry with him. People say things without thinking not realizing that their words will be forever ingraved in your heart. Since my daughter passed I have heard really stupid things that I just can't forgive. I am working on it but it is so hard. Wishing you peace in your hear. You did nothing to deserve this. Things just happen and it is beyond our control. Sending you ((hugs)).
ReplyDeleteHe was so out of line, I am so sorry. These things do not happen as a result of who we are or what we believe (that's just my opinion). I really believe that you are a caring and loving person and would have provided your son with such a home. It really irritates me when people who believe in God try to push it on others. I have a brother who is atheist, which I understand is different than agnostic but I have to respect his decision and for the most part he respects mine too. I am so sorry your BIL said those really obnoxious things. Just please remember he is not God, he just made God look bad when he said those things.
ReplyDeletePraying for you xx
I am so sorry that someone would say something like that to another person who is grieving the loss of their child. He had no right making any kind of judgement about you and your beliefs. My husband and i just converted to catholicism and we now have people trying to tell us that we won't be able to have our son in the afterlife. They don't see the hurt they are causing. It is hard enough to deal with this situation without people trying to push their beliefs and judgements on us. You are a strong person. You deserved to have that baby just as much as any other person. I hope that you somehow find peace in your heart, ((HUGS))
ReplyDeleteOMGoodness! I cannot believe that someone would ever utter these words to you, much less someone who claims to be a believer. First off, I am a beliver and I lost my son so his thoery about that is totally unfounded. Bad things happen to God's people all the time, ask him to explain Job then by his reasoning. Second, I think you are intitled to your (non)belief, that is why God created us with free will, in my opinion that is. Not one of us is perfect including your BIL. Lets hope that he really did not believe what he said. Have you told him how much he offended you by suggesting that?
ReplyDeleteIf it was me i would be so angry too. I Dont belive in god, so if someone said that to me i dont think i would be able to forget it either. Some people really need to think before they open their mouths.
ReplyDeleteNext time something bad happens to him, tell him God did it to him for saying that about Jasper...
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty angry, so maybe you wouldn't really want to say that, but that comment would get a person cut off from my life, for life. Who needs to hear BS like that?!?
Karma will take care of him, Lisa, don't you worry.
I'm not sure I could ever forgive anyone in my family for saying something like that, wow. Nothing you did or didn't do caused Jasper to die. You did nothing but love him and take care of him. You were the perfect mommy, then and now. I'm sorry someone even thinks its okay to think something like that. We are all different. Just because someone thinks differently then you doesn't mean you are wrong. Respect. He needs to learn what that is all about. *hugs*
ReplyDeleteI'm so glad you were able to share with us about this! How incredibly insensitive and hurtful to say something like that, to put it mildly. He is casting stones, as it were. When we received our son's diagnosis in utero, I used to try to update all the family members with everything so they would know what was going on. My brother-in-law emailed me and told me that he had no time for that stuff, and to stop emailing him. I cut him out of my life right then and there. Since then, the anger has faded, but I will never like him as a person. So I can understand the hurt that someone can cause, someone who should be loving and supportive and just isn't. Many many hugs, Lisa.
ReplyDeleteI am so sorry...hugs
ReplyDeleteThat statement shouldn't have been said. If your brother in law is as "Godly" as he claims to be than he would know that was not an appropriate statement to make. God is loving and forgiving. He does not punish. I know you are agnostic but let me share a bit about the bible. There is a story about a man named Job. Job loved God and worshiped him. God allowed the Devil to test Job and try to turn him away from God. Job lost his entire family (some by death and some left) and pretty much everything he had. He never forsake God and he continued to worship Him. I guess what I'm trying to say is that bad thing happen to everyone. God allows these things to happen for whatever reason but he does not punish those who don't believe in him. He gave us free will. Don't think about that statement your brother in law said to you too much. It was a cruel and heartless (and non Godly) thing to say. I hope venting it out on the blog helped you to release some of the pain he caused you. *hugs*
ReplyDeleteReally? He just had to say something like that? I believe in God and I still lost my son. It happens. Unfortunately life is not perfect. It happens to Agnostics, Catholics, Jewish, Muslim, and etc. It happens. Religion has nothing to do with it. Yeah he would be on my poop list. And that is putting it nicely. Next time you come to Chicago give me a call.
ReplyDeleteThat's just awful that he said that to you!
ReplyDeleteHey I wrote Jasper's name in the snow today when I was out and I wanted to send you the pic. My e mail is scubaloo4@yahoo.com. E mail me and I'll send it to you! :o) I hope you are having a peaceful Sunday.
*hugs*
Lisa, I am new to your blog - I actually found it through the Waterfall Angels images you sent to another babyloss mommy - and I *know* just through that loving gesture of giving parents another way to remember their precious babies that you are a good person. I am appalled by what you're brother-in-law said... more than appalled, I am reviled. I don't believe in a God that punishes with reckless abandon, and especially not with the death of a child. I hope that venting has allowed you to release some of the hurt and anger by such an unkind (to say the least) statement. ((hugs))
ReplyDeleteThat was so very wrong of him. I can understand how you feel you will never be able to forgive that comment. Hugs.
ReplyDeleteWhat an awful think to say! You are certainly not an evil person! Tragedies happen to everyone. No one is exempt. It doesn't matter who you are or what you believe in.
ReplyDeleteI also ring in as someone who believes not only in God but in His son, Jesus, the very image of God Himself sent to us on earth. Jesus loved the poor, healed the sick, took pity on those who mourn and those who weep. I do not think for ONE SECOND that God is plucking babies from those who *deserve* it. I have no doubt that God's heart hurts as He grieves for me and for you and for every other parent who has lost his or her child.
ReplyDeleteAs a Christian, my hope would be that all are able to experience the love of God. Maybe that's where your brother-in-law was coming from, but going about it in a very, very, VERY WRONG way. He had no right to say that, as it is my belief that only God is capable of judging anyone's heart.
But my bottom belief, and one that is founded by and through the Bible, is that God did NOT take your baby as a punishment for you not being certain about His existence or place in your life. My God is bigger than that, and able to take our uncertainties and our doubts and work with them and through them.
I have been a Christian for 30 of my 37 years...and still, in my car, I listen to Lee Strobel's The Case For A Creator (a very interesting book, by the way, for people who are not sure of Intelligent Design and might be interested in what scientists have to say)--because even as Christians, we question and we wonder. Especiallly when we feel we lead good "Christian" lives and are still struck with tragedy. It is simply proof that your brother-in-law is just wrong and that babies dying is not a punishment of God for unbelief or questions.
I'm sorry your brother-in-law felt it his place to go above God and make judgement, but my hope for you and your sister is that you'll be able to forgive him and realize that as humans, we just sometimes say really, really dumb things. Really dumb things that hurt.
I'm sorry for that hurt for you.
Hi There. I'm Jackson's Mommy. He too passed away in October of 09'.
ReplyDeleteI am a Christian and it broke my heart to read what was said to you both during such a tough time. I haven't been a Christian all my life...and have found there are hypocrits not just in Christianity but in the world as we know it. Unfortunately what many Christians today overlook is that nobody will come to know the love of Christ or even WANT to know a God of people who set unChristlike examples. Turn and burn methods do not win souls and in fact turn people. The difference between living a "Religion" or living out an example of Christs love.
All this to say that not every Christian is like this. There are those who live daily for religion and those who live by setting an example...we're not perfect..in fact, I screw up alot. I'm not perfect and in my Christian belief, it's the reason Jesus gave His own life in place of MY sin.
See, it's not my place to knitpick what people are doing right and wrong...God tells me to take the log out of my own eye before I take the thorn out of someone elses. I have my own struggles, my own sin...my life should be lived out as an example if I plan to share the LOVE of Christ.
My heart goes out to you both. I do not hope I affended you in my talk of God...He's become a part of me. Like an extra arm or leg. He is the very part of me. However, my heart breaks when these types of conversations take place with those who struggle to know if there IS a God. One will never seek to find Him with nasty judgemental examples that reflect anger, hatred and misguided examples of who Jesus REALLY is.
For the hurt you've been caused. I'm heartily sorry. Nobody should go through this...but especially someone who grieves the loss of a child they love so much.
God doesn't do things to harm us. He's not paying us back for some mistake we've made in the past or present. Those who share this belief will be dealt with by God Himself. He never promises His people life without trial or loss, He only says to His believers that He will be there to give us strength when we can't stand, forgiveness when we need it and LOVE unconditionally.
Hopefully your loved ones will see that. But it seems THEY are the blind ones. Jesus spent time with a prostitute, a tax collector, a lepar, theives and even said to a woman who cheated on her husband before her people were to stone her "He who doesn't sin/makes mistakes, cast the first stone". There was no need for those who felt they were righteous to need a /Savior...Jesus died because he loved the hurting, the lost and the sick.
My belief is that my son is ALIVE..He's just in Heaven. We're not looking back, we're looking forward to a whole eternity with our son one day. I WILL hold Jackson again for a very long time when I get there! However, my beliefs aren't your beliefs and I will not condemn you for your thoughts. I will love you for who YOU are and the season you are in right now. Demanding you turn or burn...or assuming you did something wrong for this to happen is ludecrous and in my opinion...it's not TRUTH. It's not even GOD'S Truth.
Lots of love to you and your husband as you find peace, strength and healing for your hearts.